Talk:1995-06-26-Personal Questions
Rob wrote: Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:55 PM
Note: In this lesson, in reply to one inquiring about the status of children aborted, intentionally or spontaneously, Abraham states:
"A baby not parted from the mother at full term, not receiving the Divine Ministers breath of life, does not survive. A baby carried full term, having parted from the mother and received soul/spirit and then by circumstances dies, yes, that mother will again be reunited with that soul."
This contradicts instruction by other teachers assembled thus far on the topic of Abortion.
Gerdean wrote: Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:31 PM
I'm with Abraham.
Steffani wrote:Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:39 PM
If something is contradicts the UB...I'd tend to ascribe it to T/R error, as the teachers taught us... "A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth." 103:2.1
Gerdean wrote:Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:21 AM
This topic is about as clear as magisterial missions.
John Kimble wrote:Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 2:00 AM
A question was asked of Abraham about miscarriages and if these babies go to Heaven. His answer is as follows:
"A baby not parted from the mother at full term, not receiving the Divine Ministers breath of life, does not survive."
Now, I recall on many occasions reading Transcripts from Monjoronson and other Celestial Teachers, that "nothing is ever lost" and that babies that were still-born, miscarriaged, and aborted will ALL be reconstituted on the Mansion Worlds.
So, which is it? What is the Truth of What Is So, on this matter as I will need to make corrections in a piece I wrote on the subject. God knows, I do not want to put out misinformation.
So please, if any of you know what's True on this matter, please speak up. Thanks in advance.
STuTe
ps. Just in case anyone should ask, I did "discern" in my own mind and heart some time ago, that nothing is lost in the universe, so these unborn children will be resurrected. But guess what, my "personal discernment" could be wrong. Should I trust my discernment over Abrahams words? Who knows better, me or him?
Do you SEE the problem with "personal discernment"? It's as about as "personal" as our finger prints, and no two are alike. Where and how do we find "personal agreement"? What's that called?
What a mess!
STuTe
Steffani wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 10:26 AM
The truth is John, YOU know the highest and best truth in your own soul, no matter what ANYONE else says or thinks! ...IF an answer to any question is that "knowing within being", that is the way God answers our most heartfelt questions.
It's a process that bypasses both the mortal intellect and human (or even former humans) opinions. When you just KNOW, that's 'the truth' from Spirit.
Once you are able to accept this, you will no longer look for definitive external validation from others who also cannot KNOW by any other method. (And co-incidentally will thereby become sophistry proof ;-)
Sometimes questions like this are actually meaningless from God's perspective, as we consider them from a purely physical material perspective.
If bodies and breaths are what are necessary to determine 'life' and 'survival' we wouldn't read things like this in the Bible...
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Or this interesting revelation in the UB...
108:1.2Although we do not definitely know, we firmly believe that all Thought Adjusters are volunteers. But before ever they volunteer, they are in possession of full data respecting the candidate for indwelling. The seraphic drafts of ancestry and projected patterns of life conduct are transmitted via Paradise to the reserve corps of Adjusters on Divinington by the reflectivity technique extending inward from the capitals of the local universes to the headquarters of the superuniverses. This forecast covers not only the hereditary antecedents of the mortal candidate but also the estimate of probable intellectual endowment and spiritual capacity. The Adjusters thus volunteer to indwell minds of whose intimate natures they have been fully apprised. (cites 108:1.3, 108:3.3, 116:7.5, 117:3.9)
We all know the Creator is fair and just, and we have faith and trust that our Father knows what He is about in creating perfect Havona, and sending His Creator Sons out to create imperfect yet perfectable universes in time/space to actualize potentials for God the Supreme. Every personal being has a known place within the cosmic family that is the ETERNAL CREATORS' grand universe design! (cites 12:7.9) Paradoxically,
...our thoughts and beliefs now serve only as scaffolding and Absolute Truth only seen through the distorted lens of relativity as Urantian faith sons of space :-)
Steff
Gerdean wrote:Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Interesting to note is that frequently even the angels do not know. For instance, in this excerpt, the words "probably" and "perhaps" -- "108:1.7
This solitary messenger acknowledges "it is our belief" thereby admitting that he does not know, and thus it is that we, too, must concede that we do not know it all. This is one of the things I love about the UB authors. They do not hesitate to admit when they don't know something, and what that it is they speculate. How much more gracious would be this Teaching Mission environment if our teachers and we would occasionally admit "we do not know".
Rob wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 11:20 AM
Thanks for the discussion of this discrepancy! If you don't mind, I would like to include it in the discussion page of the lesson.
Gerdean wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:05 PM
I don't mind. They represent the kind of dialogue that is sparked by these Dialogues.
Rob wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:37 PM
Thanks Gerdean! Yes, I look at this as well as all sincere dialogues as indivisible from the Teaching Mission Dialogues.
Steffani wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:50 PM
While it is no doubt important to 'know' one's own spiritual 'truth' as a moral compass to guide the soul, the relative incompleteness of our ability to comprehend 'the Truth' precludes any need to try to carve our current understandings of ANYTHING in concrete... Or even to imagine that writing it down in any way finalizes whatever we think that we think for more than a passing moment of time.
These high beings are evidently role modeling for us that our 'beliefs' and factual knowledge as universe creatures are ever evolving, and merely serve as working hypotheses from which to build a present 'reality' we can wrap our minds around in order to function on our current universe level, and which are subject to continuous growth and changes. (cites 115:1.2)
It's reassuring to know that we (depending on who we think we are;-) aren't expected to know everything for certain anytime soon, which isn't to imply that our Adjuster's might not KNOW right NOW!
Steff
Rob wrote: Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 1:58 PM
Thank you Steffani!
One of the distinctions of human and machine intelligence is the capacity of humans to function well amidst uncertainty. No doubt, faith in spiritual truth affords us the capacity to be at ease amidst discrepancies in material facts. I would venture to say the more confident we are in the former, the more at ease we are in the latter. --rdavis 21:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
