Group: Indianapolis TeaM
WELMEK: Greetings to all of you. This is your teacher and guide, Welmek. I am extremely pleased to see so many of you here and I extend warm greetings to those of you who have traveled from afar. Tonight we will begin with the assignment that was given to Dennis. As Michael explained to you earlier, Dennis will put into a short and meaningful prayer the many ideas that were discussed at a previous meeting. After that we will entertain whatever questions you may have. Since there are visitors, it would be good to open the meeting to a general discussion and allow the meeting to flow in the direction that will be most meaningful. Dennis, would you please share with the group what you have done?
DENNIS: Yes. Let us pray. As we pray for the presidency of Bill Clinton, let us for the moment suspend any differences we may have and reach down deep within our hearts and feel together the Father's love. As we do this, let us picture Bill Clinton in our mind's eye before us and allow this love to flow forth and surround him. (Pause) We submit to you Michael, our Master-Brother, these requests which represent a synthesis of the hopes we have expressed at an earlier gathering.
We pray that president-elect Bill Clinton seek and be saturated with the love, wisdom and strength of purpose to know and implement your plans for the improvement of our society. We ask that his faith continue to grow, that he be prompted to pray daily. We pray that before every significant decision, he quiet his mind to receive the imprint of his indwelling monitor, the affirmations of your Spirit of Truth, and the admonitions of the seasoned spiritual advisers that have been assigned to him and his staff. We ask that he recognize those who will best be able to give him counsel and administer his policies. In seeking inspired and insightful solutions, may he continue to be considerate of the viewpoints of the widest possible segments of our society, women and men, toddlers and teenagers, young adults and the young-at-heart, as well as individuals of whatever background or belief, to support the common good, to respect the rights of each individual. We ask that he be moved to give the handicapped the visibility and special support they need to strengthen their sense of dignity and self-respect.
May this nation thereby be an example to the rest of the world that unity and diversity is truly supreme. As the torch is passed from one administration to the next, we ask that a greater balance be achieved between global and domestic affairs. We pray that the peace-keeping efforts by our government in cooperation with the family of nations continue to be advanced against tyranny, and oppression, and the weapons of mass destruction. We further plead that such efforts be better organized to respond more quickly to such devastation as we are witnessing in Somalia, eastern Europe and the Middle East.
Domestically, we pray that Bill Clinton sponsor legislation to increase incentives for investment and employment in this country and thus help to restore dignity and self-worth to the many Americans who are unemployed, underemployed or who are submerged in self-defeating life styles. We pray that Bill Clinton not only address the material needs of our people, but also be appreciative of their spiritual ideals. We ask that he rise above partisan politics and special interests to develop a consensus for advancing the best interests of our society as a whole. It is our wish that he be pragmatic enough to be an effective leader without sacrificing the high ideals of which we speak. We pray that Bill Clinton be mindful of the long-term consequences of his policies, that he practice the patience necessary to see his programs through to fruition. We also pray, Michael, that he be strengthened to stand up for what he knows to be right despite whatever opposition might be arrayed against him. We further ask that he not be tempted by the power of his office to be self-serving but always honor the presidency as an outstanding opportunity to be of service to the Father and his fellow sisters and brothers everywhere. Finally, we pray that the Clinton presidency empower those who portray this planet as a living organism, which is the foundation for all the other things that we pray for, so that we may be encouraged, all encouraged, to restore her breath and ours. May we be available to assist this new administration in whatever way we may be called to serve. Nevertheless, may our Father's will be done. Amen.
WELMEK: You should be so lucky to have such a president. (laughter) You would probably want to make him your king. For the sake of explanation, do not think that your prayers must be so long. Understand that Dennis has summarized many ideas which were presented in the meeting; but the point of sincere and effective prayer is that as you envision the person you are praying for, that you feel God's love flow through you and emanate out towards this person. And secondly, that you pray for a specific purpose, specific outcome. As we have earlier discussed, to say "God bless America" is a wonderful thought but if you were an angel and anxiously awaiting to move to answer and take action to answer a prayer, what would you do? Where would you start? It is best to pray for specific outcomes, for specific purposes. Dennis stated this, many specific purposes, in a series of prayers. We will stop now and let us open the discussion to whatever questions you may have.
Q: Welmek, one thought that I had a couple weeks ago, I've always found out that when I'm meditating or praying or whatever, seeking the stillness, I am more comfortable if I take my watch and my keys and wallet off. Does the watch or anything like that cause interference or anything like that when you're meditating?
A: Only if it is a distraction to you and you are aware of the presence of these things or they affect you in some physical way to make you uncomfortable. If you are suggesting do they necessarily interrupt a thought process in any way, then I would say no. It is simply a matter of your being comfortable so that various things do not distract you.
Q: Would the metal in them interfere with any energy flows or anything like that?
A: Not for the purpose of prayer and worship.
Q: How about for Reiki healing?
A: Such things were discussed in the lesson with Andrea. As you will recall, such things may slightly divert energy, but they will not stop the flow.
Q: Welmek, when someone is praying for a specific outcome, and though their intentions may be pure, what if that outcome is not in line with the Father's will?
A: If you are praying sincerely and effectively, it is hard to imagine that it would not be in consonance with the Father's will. First, you must understand that you are not praying to change a circumstance or condition which this person is now in. That is not your prerogative to do so. What you are praying for is that the person will develop more insight, more understanding, more alter, adjust their attitude towards this condition or to come to understand it in a better way. So if you were to pray for what I have suggested, can you imagine that it might be against the Father's will?
Q: That clears up the question. (long pause)
WELMEK: Too much turkey yesterday. (laughter)
Q: Welmek, last week you mentioned something that you were going to have some comments on our Thanksgiving observation. Are you going to talk about that at all? How we give thanks on this holiday?
A: My basic observation is that, in fact, most do not give thanks. You come together in your family groups and you enjoy companionship and food and drink and rest; and this is valuable and this is worthwhile. But I daresay that in many households, nothing more than a token thanksgiving is offered, if even that.
Q: How would you suggest we express thanksgiving?
A: I would not suggest or prescribe the particular words for you. But I would suggest that each family or each group that shares Thanksgiving together take some time and think about what they have to be thankful for; and if they do that, surely there is much they can be thankful for. Whether one individual leads a time for thanksgiving or allows some quiet time for each individual to think about what they have to be thankful for does not matter. Secondly, I am not just referring to what you do as a group. But I am also referring to each of you individually. How many of you, after sharing this time with family and friends, went home and truly reflected upon and thought about what you have to be thankful for?
Q: Welmek, I'd like to ask a question. I don't know if the Cincinnati visitors have talked about this, but Bob and I get phone calls to this effect all the time. For those of us who have friends who may request teachers in future, your answer could be helpful too. What suggestions would you give to a group who has requested a teacher so that that would help them prepare themselves for the coming of that teacher?
A: First, as we have discussed before, I would suggest that you send some transcripts to these individuals and suggest that they read some of them. Secondly, it is helpful if someone who has participated in the teaching mission could go and talk to a particular group and discuss the mission with them. Thirdly, I would suggest that if there are two or more that are interested in the mission, that they agree to set aside a time when they will meet for the specific purpose of participating in this mission. If they do not yet have a teacher, I would suggest that at this time they read and discuss the content of the transcripts. I would suggest that each of the individuals seek the stillness, that they worship, that they pray and that they ask themselves whether or not they would be willing to serve in the role of the human transmitter/receiver so that when a teacher is assigned there will be a human to communicate the teacher's message.
Q: Welmek, could you give us a universe view of our concept of reincarnation and karma?
A: As stated in the text of the Urantia Book, reincarnation as commonly understood, meaning that you as a human being have had a previous existence upon this planet, is not real. This is your first existence as a human. When you pass on, when you experience physical death, you will move to the next worlds, the mansion worlds, and you will continue your progress through the entire universe and on beyond until you finally stand in the presence of the Paradise Father. Therefore, there is continuing life. Wherever you leave off, so to speak, in your spiritual development on this planet, that is, in a sense, where you will pick up on the mansion worlds. These concepts are similar.
Try to think in your own minds, that if you had a concept of continuing life and if you had a concept of continuing spiritual development, but yet you lacked a universe view, you did not know there is a vast universe where you can continue life, then would you not only be able to conclude that you must come back to this particular planet. Where else could you go if you had no awareness of how a universe is organized and how there are so many worlds waiting to help you and train you as you progress.
The experience of thinking that one has had a previous existence is a real phenomenon to the extent that you have a strong impression made upon your mind. Understand that you are a product of heredity, that you have had ancestors who have gone before you and that there is, in a sense, a sort of genetic memory within each of you. Secondly, you have very little understanding of the concept of mind and the mind circuits. There is a mind circuit, a universal mind, and it is as if each of you are plugged into it in a sense. On occasion, it is possible to tap into this mind and to possibly pick up a memory, a reflection, an experience of some other human being who has contributed due to their life on this planet to this collective cultural unconscious mind. Therefore, without this understanding, when one has such an experience, would it not seem natural that they would conclude that it was the individual himself who must have had this life, this experience?
Q: Could this experience also come from our Mystery Monitors?
A: In what way?
Q: Could we somehow tap into their experiences of living before?
A: As your text states, none of the Mystery Monitors who indwell humans on this planet have ever indwelt humans on this planet before. They may have indwelt on other worlds, but the life and circumstances there would be different; and I would say that that is not part of the collective unconscious mind on this planet and that would not be possible.
Q: Could you explain this, the function and meaning behind the statements of the tree of life in the Urantia Book?
A: I am not permitted to give you details except to say what your text states. Essentially, the concept of the tree of life is related to a substance which Adam and Eve and others were able to partake of. They had a dual energy system. This substance energized their other energy system; and I will only say that this energy system had the potential of keeping their human energy system vitalized to a point where it would not experience deterioration.
Q: What kind of situations would cause someone to be able to gain access to past memories..(?)
A: Some are more susceptible than others to tap into such a mind circuit. If the person practices the meditation, seeking the stillness and has this objective in mind, they might improve their ability to occasionally tap into this mind circuit.
Q: Welmek, is this mind circuit the same circuit that is mentioned in the Urantia Book as the reflectivity circuit?
A: No, the reflectivity circuits and the mind circuit are separate and distinct things.
Q: Welmek, I take it that none of us have the dual energy. Is it possible we could develop that?
Q: Why not?
A: Again, I would refer you to your text. Adam and Eve came from another world. They were given special bodies and they were given this special dual energy system to exist upon this planet. It is not native to this planet. It can only come from other worlds and must be given by these other worlds. It is not native to this planet.
Q: Welmek, in the Urantia Book it says that three things occur, could happen to you when you die. The first is to be immediately resurrected in one of the mansion worlds or mansion halls. The second is to become a sleeping survivor until resurrection en masse at a dispensational time. And the third, the comment is made that others may be detained until such time as their affairs are cleared up. Could you elaborate what that means?
A: I cannot comment.
Q: Along the same line, why would a soul not choose to go on in their universe career past a certain point?
A: As I have said in earlier meetings, I truly cannot understand this. Beings who come from worlds like yours, when they awaken on the mansion worlds, it is such an improvement, there is so much joy and beauty that they are excited and they wish to go on. I have actually known a few individuals who chose not to go on, but they came from worlds like my own that were already settled in Light and Life. Having experienced what I have and knowing of the joy and the beauty and the goodness that awaits each individual as they progress, I truly cannot understand why any individual would make such a choice; and I again would say that it is very rare indeed, but it does happen.
Q: Welmek, getting back to the past life experience phenomena, does a particular person tap into a particular memory on a consistent basis or is it random?
A: That is a difficult question because normally when the experience is more real, it would be random, but once such an experience happens, the person's own mind and imagination can focus upon that experience and embellish it and the individual rarely able to distinguish what is a real momentary glimpse experience from what their own mind is projecting or imagining.
Q: Okay, I understand that. What I'm thinking about is, say for example this is not the case, that I have a memory experience or something of somebody else's life in the past, that it would be documented elsewhere in history that's unbeknownst to me and then at another time have another experience in that same person's past, but another one of their experiences. What's the likelihood of that phenomena or is that just a matter of random chance again?
A: I cannot say. It could be either of the solutions that I presented to you.
Q: Are we coming close to the closing of the age?
A: Can you describe what you mean by an age?
Q: In the Urantia Book it talks about a dispensational age or is it the sleeping survivors, will be resurrected?
A: As you are aware there are various ethical revelations. The last being the presentation of the Urantia Book. I would suggest that as in as much as it is so recent, surely it will take more time for it to unfold before one could think that there would be an end to that age.
Q: So are you saying that the transmitting of the Urantia Book was the beginning of an age?
A: Each epochal revelation in a sense is a beginning of a new age. It is a beginning of a new effort upon the part of your planetary government to improve the conditions upon this world.
Q: Welmek, I have a curiosity question. When I read the Jesus papers, I get the feeling that we've made very little progress other than technological progress; and keeping that in mind, in the last 30 years, 40 years, there's been huge technological progress that's changing many peoples' lives. So I have two questions. First, is it a true observation that we've had very little progress in things other than technology? And I guess it's up to us how that technology is going to change our lives, if it helps us to grow spiritually and frees us or we become even more burdened because of it.
A: I will address your second question first. Technology is a tool. Used in the hands of a spirit-led person, it can be a wonderful tool. Used in the hand of a person dominated by evil, it can be a terrible tool. Concerning the issue of progress, much depends upon what perspective you look at it from and what time frame you are using. From our point of view, there has clearly been much progress on your planet. For example, if you were to look back 2,000 years ago to the time of the arrival of our Master upon this planet, and you looked at the civilization of the Romans, I believe it would be accurate that approximately 50 per cent of the people were slaves. So in 2,000 years, there has been much progress. Many practices that existed in those times are no longer practiced. There has been progress in many areas. Too say that it has been too fast or too slow might be an indication of lack of patience. Would you agree? Then would it not be fair to say that things have progressed according to God's plan in the way that they should?
Q: How long does a thought pattern linger in the atmosphere?
A: Why would that matter? (laughter)
Q: Curiosity. I presume that thought patterns in our atmosphere are the result of (?) on this planet.
A: Do you recall as we discussed effective and sincere prayer, if such a sincere and effective prayer is uttered, do you recall that I suggested that in effect it was registered?
A: Then I would suggest that those thoughts that are of greatest value have a longer and more permanent effect, while those thoughts that are of little value would tend to fade away.
Q: Welmek, I formed "Matthew ask a question." Do you know anything about deaf opportunity?
A: I am not that familiar, but I would encourage him to ask his question.
Q: In deaf opportunity there are many issues. One big issue is communication method. There are many fights about deaf people communicating in sign language or the oral method. I would like your thoughts on that issue, if you know anything about that.
A: Our primary mission is to help individuals in their spiritual progress. There are many social issues which must evolve. Individual humans must decide what is best for a culture at a particular time. I would encourage anyone who has thought deeply about such an issue and who truly believes that they have felt guidance about this issue to strongly and heroically present their ideas to try to bring about change. However, it is not our place to say which method is best. It is up to humans to resolve this question for themselves.
Q: How will institutionalized religions be impacted by this teaching in this next phase?
A: Much depends upon the time frame which you look at it from. If you were to invite the average minister to this group, what do you think they would say?
Q: They would want mass exorcism.
A: I would suggest that any teaching which promotes individual religion, and by individual religion I mean the idea that individual is indwelt by a fragment of the Universal Father and therefore has immediate access to the love and guidance of the Father, would likely be seen as a threat at this time to most organized religions. It would not have to be this way if their goal was to truly help you as an individual find God within you, but is that really the goal of most of them? Or is their goal to interpret what God wants for you and what God is truly saying, and want you to come to them for that interpretation? In time, as more and more people awaken to God's presence within them, it will have an evolutionary impact. Sooner or later, more and more individuals who have a sympathetic regard for organized religions, will demand change. As the text states, the religious institutions are the slowest to change. They believe that they are protecting God's word, and so they are very resistant to change. On the other hand, like any institution, if they do not change and do not keep pace with the spiritual evolution on this planet, they will eventually find themselves only talking to themselves; and their number will become very small. But I would not suggest that this will happen in a short time. It will still take several generations to see dramatic impacts, dramatic effects in this way. It could happen sooner, but it is really up to each of you and to the humans on this planet. If you could imagine that once each week, even 50% of the humans on this planet were attending such a meeting as this where they are interested in finding more about God's love and pursuing His presence and willing to forgive their brothers and sisters and trying to learn to love each other more, this would do more to change things more quickly on your planet than anything you could possibly imagine. But I would suggest we are a long, long way from 50% of the population participating in such a process.
Q: Welmek, in the Rayson papers, my understanding was that if someone is truly iniquitous that the Thought Adjuster leaves them and they become truly dead even though the physical body lingers on. Do I understand that it then is possible to truly choose non-survival while in the human body?
A: It is not likely that this would happen while still in the flesh. In order to become iniquitous, you must consciously choose sin. Most humans do not truly understand enough about truly what is sin to consciously pursue it. Many in the human form who might seem that way are likely to be very mentally or emotionally disturbed and therefore are not acting with a normal mind. Most, in fact I would dare say almost every human, would not make such a decision of such consequence until they have at least experienced many, many years on the mansion worlds.
Q: Welmek, I was curious about the posture that the Urantia Book has towards the experience of mota being primarily something we would experience after survival. Was the opening of the circuits something that would bring the morontial energies into play now so we can begin to experience mota in our present lives?
A: The statements called morontia mota in your text represent a bridge between the highest human philosophy and the lower levels of morontia philosophy and wisdom. If you wonder if you have progressed and if you understand much, then read over these statements and ask yourself if you truly understand them and if you think you do, then find someone and try to explain them to that person. Because if you truly understand something, you must be able to teach it or make it somewhat understandable to someone else. As you progress in the universe, whatever you learn must not only be mastered by you, but it must be mastered in a way that you in turn can teach it to others. As you progress, as you develop, as you pray, as you worship, as you seek greater understanding, the morontia mota concepts will become increasingly clear to you.
Q: Welmek, you're talking about the mind circuits. I met a poet once who said, who stated what he called introspection, meditation, he felt that he obtained his poetry from a common, I don't know if he referred to it as a mind circuit, but he felt that it was not of his own creation. Would this be something that would tie into the mind circuit as you described it? Would these be prayers or thoughts that have been registered?
A: It is more likely that this individual has been given inspiration by some being.
Q: Like his Thought Adjuster or any other being?
A: There are many spiritual beings who can register mindal concepts within a human mind. They are under various types of restrictions and can only do this under certain conditions and within certain parameters. I am not at liberty to discuss with you what those are. I would suggest that if you truly have an area in your life that you really want an answer for or you really want to excel at, that you focus your energies and your work towards that end; and you might be more likely to fall within those parameters of an individual who might be given some extra help.
Q: Welmek, when there are discoveries made that are significant, it seems that often they're made simultaneously in several parts of the world at once or several different peoples' minds. I think the Urantia Book makes mention of that in terms of inspiration; but I wondered is it always that situation or is it sometimes a set of circumstances that seem to parallel or cause the mind to come up with these concepts?
A: It can happen individually, it can happen to several within a relatively short time period. Much depends upon the circumstances. Again, I can only say it can happen either way. I cannot describe for you what those circumstances are. (Long pause) I must assume by your lack of questions about prayer and worship and forgiveness and seeing the presence of God in others that you have now all mastered these four objectives that you have been given?
Q: We'd have to think about it.
A: Then perhaps let us move from the curiosity questions to something of more substance.
Q: Welmek, I suppose I still have a problem with praying for specifics in a specific way. If we pray that Thy will be my will, is that effective prayer, or do we need any more situation specifics? Or outcome specifics?
A: That is a prayer for yourself. That is a desire on your part. When I speak of prayer, I speak mostly of praying for others; and when you pray for others, then you should try to be as specific as you can.
Q: Welmek, if a person wanted to strive to come as close as possible to fusion with their Thought Adjuster while still on this earth, is there any specific plan they should follow? Anything that's more valuable spiritually than any other? Other than meditation, prayer and worship?
A: We have given you the four most effective techniques to traverse the circles of development to find the presence of God within you. These are the methods. You have been given them. There is no other way.
Q: Welmek, I have a question about worship. I have to put it in real abstract terms. It's a feeling more than a way that I can really express it in words. Basically, when I'm doing my daily worship and I am concentrating and I feel that I should concentrate more on the feeling than the words at this point, is that a good direction to go in? Because it feels right.
A: What you are trying to achieve is a sense of the feeling of God's love within you. Just as you feel love, true love, for another individual, so you are trying to feel this love for the Father. The words that you say can be helpful, but they are not necessary. When you use words, they should mostly be words of thanksgiving. But it is truly your thoughts, your feelings, that you are turning Godward, and try not to think of it as an either/or situation. Both are effective. Whatever you feel is most beneficial and is working best for you now, I would suggest that you follow that.
Q: Welmek, I have a question about feeling the love of God during worship. Sometimes it has happened that I really feel like I am feeling the love of God, but then it seems to get bottled up and I have to direct it out towards someone or something; and at that point, does that become prayer rather than worship?
A: Can you explain why you must redirect this feeling of love?
Q: Well, it feels like I'm just filled up with it; and it needs to spill out someplace, like I've almost got too much of it. It has to go somewhere. This has happened a couple of times and it's as though it should be flowing through me, not just coming into me and stopping there. It's the only way I can express it I guess.
A: In worship, you are trying to make contact with the Father fragment, and you are trying to feel God's love and to project your love towards God. After a while, it may be a few seconds, it may be a few minutes, it may be longer, the time is not so important, you may or you will eventually sense a time to stop. I suspect this may be what you are experiencing; and when you sense this, you still feel the good feelings and so then you are projecting it outwards towards your brothers and sisters. I would say this is normal.
Q: Welmek, I have a question. I was reading Rayson's papers the other day and they're kind of neat. They're just kind of compact. I was reading on the seraphic guardians. It kind of mind-boggles me because they have so much, I don't want to use the word "power" but it's the only one I can think of, influence over us. How much influence do they have and how much pressure can they put on us?
A: I would say that your angels should be thought of as the most loving and wonderful friends and companions that you can imagine. They are assigned to you and they truly love you with a near-human affection. The ultimate responsibility for the guidance of your spiritual path belongs to the Thought Adjuster. In a sense, the angels help carry out the plan of the Adjuster. Within certain parameters, they are allowed to make mindal impressions on you; but I am not at liberty to say more.
Q: Welmek, it said in there that these seraphim, angels, whatever you want to call them, can . ...well, if patience is what they're trying to help us with and they can put obstacles in our way, today was a bad day for me. I lost, they won. It said in there that they can literally change, I want to say atoms, but that's probably not the right word for it. They can literally change material things? Do you understand what I'm saying?
A: I understand; but I hope you can understand why it is so difficult for me to reply. How many of your brothers and sisters, if they walk across the street and trip on the curb, would say "I must have done something wrong. God is punishing me." Or how many would say "My angels are trying to teach me something because I tripped over the curb." For how can we give you an understanding of the parameters of what they can and cannot do, because so much of it depends upon a particular circumstance. And it would not be our desire to have you constantly think every little thing in your life is being affected or caused by your angels.
Q: Welmek, what part does forgiveness play in both prayer and healing?
A: It is of paramount importance. Let me ask you, if you feel hate, or anger, or resentment, or fear within you, is that an attitude that is conducive to prayer and worship and to feeling the Father's love?
A: Then first you must understand what is this anger or fear or hatred directed towards? Obviously, it is either someone else or yourself. You must release this, and in releasing it you feel a sense of forgiveness. The Father loves you as you love a young child. When a young child does something wrong, you do not hold this against the child. You realize that they make mistakes and you still love them. And so it is with the Father towards each of us. We are His young children, and so we make mistakes when we allow ourselves to indulge in such emotions as fear and anger. We are, in a sense, making a mistake, we are in error because we have not found a proper or better attitude to see and understand the person or the situation. Therefore, when we experience these things, because they are so opposite of the feeling of the Father's love, we have in a sense, have the feeling of temporarily cutting ourselves off from the Father's love. In reality, you do not ever cut yourself off from this love, because it is always there. But you feel like you have. Your sense, your experience, is that you have lost that feeling. When you lose that feeling of inner peace and of God's love, you will approach situations and you will make decisions that will not be wise, will not be fair and will not be in your own best interest. Therefore, to feel God's love, you must allow such spirit poisons to be released and not to dwell upon them.
Q: Welmek, is it all right to ask Michael to help us to feel the Father's love?
A: It is permissible to pray to Michael for insight and understanding; but understand that worship is reserved for the Father alone. Do you understand this distinction?
Q: I think so. It's not permissible to ask him in the form of a prayer to feel the Father's love?
A: It is better to say it this way, that you pray that you will be better able to feel the Father's love.
Q: . .(?) it's often difficult to release these things, forgiveness. We ask for divine help to be able to release these things...our angels, is that part of their job, possibly to help?
A: Yes, it is most important that you seek help in asking that you let go of these feelings. If this is your desire, then I can assure you that any being who has any ability to help influence you will do their best to provide the insight and understanding for you to let go of these feelings.
Q: Welmek, in thinking along these lines of forgiveness, is there any one mistake that we can make here on earth (I'm thinking back to the essence of the child); is there any instances, any one time that when we make a mistake that God will not forgive us? Or is there any one thing that we can do as a mistake that will keep us out of Paradise?
A: Let me first ask. What would your own children have to do for you not to love them?
Q: There isn't anything they can't do that I wouldn't love them.
A: And so it is with the Father.
Q: So you're saying that the murderers, like Hussein, even though thinking back on the essence of the child, there isn't anything they haven't done that God could not forgive them for? Or do they have a very hard row to hoe?
A: First, you have to assume that they are consciously aware of the universe, of the plan of the universe, of the Father's love. They must consciously know what it is they would be rejecting. Do you suspect that Mr. Hussein has any idea whatsoever of this?
Q: No, I don't think he has any idea except terrorism.
A: Then it is truly sad, and it is truly unfortunate what he does. Do you think, in a sense, that he is probably in his right mind?
Q: No, I've never thought he was in his right mind. He has few screws loose.
A: And so while he must eventually face human repercussions of his actions, we are talking about the judgment of his soul, the ability of his soul to live eternally. If he awakens on the mansion worlds and he realizes the beauty and the goodness of the universe and he sees the love that exists, then if he were to continue to want to indulge in evil and in sin and not to participate in God's plan and to learn to become a truly loving human being, then he is aware of his choice. And then it is possible, if he rejected the way of God's love, that he could doom himself to eternal extinction.
But how, without this knowledge, could he be held accountable for the future of his soul? Again, this is not to say that he should not clearly be held accountable for his human actions by the humans on this planet.
Q: Welmek, is it true that when you would say God forgives you for your sins before you ask for forgiveness, is this a true statement?
A: It is a true statement that God has foreknowledge of your desire for repentance; and in a sense, He will always forgive you if you desire forgiveness. In that sense, I would say yes. But there is a sense in which you as an individual, when you do things that you think are wrong, you feel cut off from God's love. It is not that God has stopped His love for you; but it is your feeling that you have cut off this love. Therefore, when you feel a desire to do better and you want to return to the presence of God's love, it is you, in your own experience and in your own feeling, that re-connects to this flow of God's love. But God's love has never been stopped. Do you understand this distinction?
Q: Yes. Thank you.
Q: Talking about the souls that go on to the morontial worlds that in their human life what we would consider great sinners, such as the Hitlers and the Husseins and that type, and those that do choose to move on, do they choose to do anything special in terms of repentance or compensation or anything like that?
A: I can only say that they must undergo extensive rehabilitation. Can you imagine if you awoke on the mansion worlds and realized the love and the beauty and the goodness that exist, and you reflected back upon your life and how many innocent humans you had murdered or tortured or whatever, how do you think you would feel? Do you think that you would even feel worthy to go on?
Q: Probably not.
A: And so it takes extensive rehabilitation with such individuals because how hard do you think it will be for them to forgive themselves when they truly realize what they have done?
Q: Is that to say that they would then be in their normal mind in that state, because there is such a thing as cosmic insanity, but you probably can't address and make the distinction.
A: If they are not of normal mind, then they will not necessarily have clear and distinct memories and awareness of their actions and motivations. This would be somewhat different.
Q: Welmek, do people who while on the earth here truly believe that there is no afterlife, no God, no heaven, nothing, just you die and that's it, do they have a hard time adjusting when they wake up?
A: It might be somewhat of a surprise to them. (laughter) The issue, however, in a sense, the question is a good one. When you realize that you have been wrong about something, how easy is it for you to admit that you have been wrong; and what is it would you say that prevents you from admitting that you may have been wrong?
A: Does your bible not say that pride is the greatest stumbling block of all? Does your text not also say this?
A: Consider, then, someone like Lucifer, who far more than humans, consciously knew what he was doing. Can you see that when you consciously pursue something for a longer and longer period of time and you continually fail to admit that you are making a mistake, can you see that it would become more and more, increasingly difficult to admit that you have made a mistake?
A: And so, can you see that at that point, one might even choose not to survive rather than to ever admit that they have been wrong all this time?
Q: Well, it's difficult for me to see that; but I can see where some people feel like that because I have known people like that who were self-destructive rather than admit to their own, guilt, I suppose is a good word, or part in something.
A: And what would you say is the opposite of pride?
A: Exactly. Humility is an extremely important trait to possess. You must pursue what you believe is right; but you must pursue things with an open mind and always with the possibility that you might be wrong. The difference is, what is your motivation? Are you more concerned about whether you are right or wrong, or whether you have found what is true? If your motivation is to find what is true, then would it not be easy to let go of previous ideas that were not correct?
Q: For me, yes. But again, I've known people where this is not true.
A: I understand. I am only suggesting that pride is one of, if not the greatest, stumbling block for individuals and that humility is a very important trait to have. In a future meeting, we will discuss in more detail, this concept of humility and its importance in your spiritual growth.
Q: So what you are saying is, when a person truly believes that there is no tomorrow, so to speak, after their death, wakes up in their morontial body or whatever, that it depends on their individual set of mind how prideful or how willing they are to accept that they may have been wrong as to whether they go on or not.
A: Yes, but you see in this situation, they will surely not deny that they have awoken. (laughter) How could such an individual deny what they are now seeing with their own eyes?
Q: They might think they're dreaming.
A: We will have many to pinch them. (laughter) Such thoughts are simply errors of mind, the result, usually, of disillusionment, a result of not finding the Father's love and moving to disappointment and even despair. Sometimes it is really nothing more than the desire to appear different or unique to others, to be the center of attention, to draw attention because one takes a view that is different than most of your brothers and sisters. There are many possibilities or combinations, but I would suggest that something like this is, for the most part, inconsequential. Remember that in one of our recent meetings, we even discussed that those who take their own life in suicide, while clearly not advisable, still will awaken on the mansion worlds, as everyone else, and be given a chance to see the beauty and goodness of God's universe.
Q: Thanks very much. It's comforting to know.
Q: Welmek, in dealing with healing and learning the Father's will, could you expand upon Michael's commandment, not only just to love one another as you would love yourself, but he went on further to say to love one another as I loved you. Could you expand upon that philosophy of loving?
A: The distinction that is being made is that which is described in your text and we have discussed before. I believe it was perhaps Norson that helped you make this distinction between brotherly love and fatherly love. Fatherly love requires more of you than brotherly love; and this is what our Master is asking, that we not only wish others well, but that we also give them the love the Father bestows upon us and that we make every attempt to be of service to them that we can. Let me ask you: how would you describe the difference between the love between a brother and sister and the love between a parent for his child?
Q: That's a good question since I don't have any children although I do have many nieces and nephews so I can expand on the fact that my love for them is completely without reserve to the extent that I would do anything in my power for them. In the love for my brother and my sister, I know that they are basically able to take care of themselves unless they are in dire need of support or help. Then I know that I will be there for them.
A: And would others respond to this question?
Q: I feel that probably the Father's love would entail much more responsibility for the individual than would a typical brother and sister relationship. It would entail the early years.
A: And what would you describe as the essence of this added responsibility?
Q: A close monitoring of the individual's welfare from a perspective of greater experience and wisdom.
Q: Welmek, I'd like to add that parental responsibility that a brother or sister would not have, a parent would be responsible to see to it that a child achieves the age of majority or the age of responsibility where they can take care of themselves. The parent assumes that responsibility until that time. I think that would probably be the primary distinction.
Q: But a parent is always a parent, and as a parent, it doesn't stop at any time. It goes on as the child exists, whether it's good or bad, whether you agree or don't agree with them because this is loving. And we should be thankful for grandchildren.
A: (tape turned and words lost) . ..distinction, and let us continue to share these ideas because this is very important.
Q: I think that a parent's love for a child is always encompassing. If you truly love your child (some parents don't), you feel with their feeling, you hurt with their hurts and you're happy with their joys. You're also responsible for guiding them to what is to your best knowledge the spiritual way of life, the good, and away from what would be unkindness and intolerance, fear. Children are not capable of being responsible for other children; and therefore, you have brother/sister type love. When you grow up, adults are like brothers and sisters to each other; they don't need to be responsible for each other. And in reply to Georgette, you never stop being a parent, but when your children become adults, adults need friends, they don't need parents. They are capable and have the right to develop on their own. If they need you to be "Mommy" you can always turn on "Mommy", but you should respect them as a functioning, (?) adult, responsible for their own welfare and spiritual development and destiny.
Q: It seems to me these are concepts of love on a human level, but when we love soul-to-soul, I don't see any difference between the love of a father and the love of a brother. We're expressing the things we do out of love for people, but love is love.
Q: I think a father's love is like Brenda said, all-encompassing. A father or a mother has a sense of responsibility above bestowing love. What they want to do is pass on experience if they can and grant their child such an experience that that child will have an opportunity for constant growth and not just growth, I guess, but self-enhancement. A sister or brother is more of a peer. I suppose in a cosmic sense a sister or brother is more of a peer, even though they might be an older brother or sister, they can't beyond a certain point see past a certain perspective. Whereas a parent, because of that parent's experience with life, has more to offer and therefore more to bestow.
Q: Welmek, I think our world is not perfect enough for many adults to truly grow and be whole. So I think there's a piece of every one of us who needs nurturing and assistance and development. For me, I think the different parenting styles, I think a parenting style where you are focused on the child's welfare and what's best for their growth versus our own expectations or reflections on us as a parent is important. I think that unconditional love that's focused on, as Mary said, that continual growth, that development of self-esteem, finding supporting ways to make the best decisions they can make for themselves, I see that as a fatherly love that has value whether it's a younger person or a child versus a peer. I think it's equal. I think that's probably what it is for me.
Q: Isn't brotherly and sisterly love just an immature form of fatherly love, and that's what Jesus is saying is, make no distinction? Love one another as God loves you, and that there is really only one love.
Q: The love of a parent, though, is unconditional. It's given freely, regardless of what you do. It forgives many sins over and over, and always wants what's best for you and in a sense also tries to assist you in whatever you need to do to obtain the best. The love of a sister or brother, sibling love, is not quite as seeking to serve in that capacity. To me, it's more of wanting to share love, but the fatherly love, the love of a parent, goes one step farther. It really..the unconditional nature to it, the love that keeps on giving and wants to help out in any way, the service that's behind it, is more the love of a parent than the love of a brother or sister.
Q: Could it be suggested then, that the difference would be a brotherly/sisterly love, not just between siblings, but from me to you or whatever would be more of a supportive love, whereas a parental love would be more of a guiding love.
Q: I think fatherly love, parental love, is one that respects free will and self-responsibility.
Q: Brotherly love is I think perhaps oftentimes intermittent as occasions arise. The fatherly love, parental love is the constancy..(words lost).
Q: If we're trying to look at the analogy between, I guess, physical parental love and physical brotherly or sisterly love, you have to look at the aspect that unless you're a donor or something, a parent can give literally of him or herself in giving life to a child. That's something that a brother or sister usually cannot do. If we look at that philosophically, it seems to me that the difference between parental love or fatherly love or brotherly or sisterly love would be that you're giving something of yourself and that seems to be the distinction that Jesus was making when he said "Love one another as I have loved you". Give more of yourself instead of...like a supportive kind of love.
Q: There seems to be a lot of emphasis and even comparison in these teachings in the parental/child relationship to compare that to the relationship of us to God. It would seem to me that unless you have actually experienced a parental/child relationship, you're going to lack a certain amount of understanding in the difference between the two. Many people live this life and don't have children. Myself, I have never had children, so...
Q: You have parents, don't you?
Q: True, but I am not a parent; so when many of you who have children here talk about your relationship and the love you feel for your child, I think it's difficult for those of us who haven't had children to really grasp that. I think until you do, you simply lack a certain understanding of what that kind of love is and how it's different than the types of love you feel for your mate, for your family, for your friends. There's just something missing there when you have that.
Q: Also, as a parent, it goes on further because as your grandchildren come along, then we extend our love even more. Then not only do we love our children and our grandchildren, then we have their mates and they become a part of us and so you have to love them. Sometimes you get irritated at them..(laughter)
Q: To me, it's a deeper kind of a love and when we first started to talk about this, what came to mind was when in the Jesus papers where Jesus talked about John Mark and how his parents had done such a wonderful job in bringing him up by not extending too much love to him. So the love of a parent being able to, when it's necessary for the strength of the child, to say no and at times even risk losing that relationship because you love them, to me that's a deeper love than what we usually have to share in our brother and sister relationships.
Q: Welmek, I would like to ask you, my feeling is whether it's this world or another, if you have this parental/child experience, isn't this in fact a very moving and effective way to grow yourself, not only emotionally, but spiritually? And if humans pass to the next world without this experience, do they in fact experience it somewhere along their journey?
A: As your text states, everyone must have the parental experience.(47:1.6) If you do not have it on this world, you will participate in a parental experience on the next worlds. I would even add that also as your text states, you will be reviewed to determine the extent of your parental experience (47:1.4); and if the necessary lessons have been mastered this suggests that even some who might have sired children might not have really raised them and therefore have requisite parental experience. Therefore, all must eventually, either on this world or the next, go before a group who will pass upon your parental experience. As you progress in the universe, you will find that there are certain things, lessons that you must master and that you cannot fool anyone. Either you will know what you need to know or you will continue learning and experiencing until you are able to master what you need to at a particular level. The advantage is that there is no hurry. You have an eternity and you will have all of the help and guidance that you can possibly imagine.
At this time, I believe this is a good point to bring the meeting towards conclusion. There have been many excellent ideas brought forth about the nature of brotherly and parental love. I would ask all of you, as an assignment, to look in your text for references to the differences or similarities between brotherly and sisterly and parental love, and that you come to our meeting next week prepared to continue this discussion. I sense that while many ideas have been expressed, in most of your minds there is still some confusion about this. And I suggest to you that this is a very important area for you to understand. So let us continue this discussion at our meeting next week; and meanwhile, look up these references in your text and think about these issues.
As your text says, so few mortals really think. When we present these lessons, it is important that you reread these transcripts and that you think about what is being said. If you have confusion, try to think and weigh and assess and compare and contrast the ideas that are being presented so that you have a fuller grasp of their meaning. And if you are still uncertain, then write down your questions; and bring these questions to a subsequent meeting.
Much food for thought, much substantive thought has been discussed this evening. Do not allow it to simply fade away. Reread, study, think, so that it becomes part of your understanding and part of your experience; so that when we conclude our discussion about this, if someone were to come up to you and ask you what is the difference between brotherly love and fatherly love, you will feel that you are more prepared to help them in their understanding and to guide them through the questions that will lead to a proper understanding.
I again wish to say that there are many other beings who are here witnessing this meeting. Many would wish to speak, but there is not time. I can assure you that they all send their love to you and your mere presence here, your willingness to spend your time seeking God's will and seeking to have a better understanding of life and of the Father is truly inspiring to all of those who are observing these events. Go in peace, and may God's love fill your souls so that your brothers and sisters may see this love pouring forth from you and want to partake of this love also.
GROUP: Goodnight, Welmek.