Talk:2013-12-06-New Era Conversations 12
December 9
Gerdean wrote: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:09 PM
As someone who is more than cursorily familiar with the problems of addiction and the miracles of recovery, I found Daniel Raphael's Melchizedek to have missed the mark completely when he said:
"... it is not that we do not care about these people, but it is a matter of limited resources for the greatest amount of return to the societies of Urantia. It is not that we are leaving these addictive personalities by the wayside of civilization, for we are not. There are choices that are involved in all of these projects for us, for you and for those people who are addicted and how they got into that position. We would far more greatly see the need for preventative action toward those addictive personalities who have not, in fact, become addicted to alcohol or some other form of drugs.
Those who are already addicted are a small percentage of your society and it is unfortunate for their situation. We love them; God loves them; there is nothing to forgive—it is simply a matter of their living choices and needing to learn to live new lives within their societies. You may come to an erroneous opinion or conclusion that spirit does not care about these people, but surely we do. We wish you to remember that the time is very short now and that our message must get out to the broadest population of the world. We also consider the return on our investment. When we invest in populations that are free from addiction and free from these inclinations, we know that those who will follow these socially sustainable procedures will also see the benefit and share them with others. This assists our work to broaden its audience to the largest number of people."
especially when he rounds out his lesson with a discussion about the three kinds of currency: financial, social, and political and is overlooking the fact that people in recovery are a dynamic force for each of these realms. It could be said that everybody involved in the Correcting Time is a person in recovery from the effects of the Lucifer Rebellion and the Adamic Default. Those who have been born again, born of the spirit, who have turned away from their legacy of "self-will run rampant" through excesses of alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling, over-eating, smoking, shopping, chaos, adrenlin, power, politics, war, ad nauseum, and turned to a Higher Power for solutions and Good Orderly Direction have far more to offer humanity than those who are content to sit in the dark and let others do their thinking for them. A wet drunk is as useless as a rich publican, but those who have made a decision to live in God's will, do atone for their wayward past in very productive lives, dedicated to the highest good for all of humanity.
Wonder what he thinks "preventative action" is?
Marty wrote: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 5:03 PM
As someone who is more than cursorily familiar with the problems of addiction and the miracles of recovery, I found Daniel Raphael's Melchizedek to have missed the mark completely when he said:
"... it is not that we do not care about these people, but it is a matter of limited resources for the greatest amount of return to the societies of Urantia.
Question: Who is the "we"? Is he speaking for Michael and Mother? for the planetary regime? for the angels and seraphim, guardians of addicted mortals?
Whose resources are limited? is it the resources of our Creator? Perhaps Machiventa has never experienced the tremendous power of the healing of such addicts who sank to the very bottom and were saved by their hope and faith, by the love of their families and peers. It is the very top wrung of the ladder out of the hell of this world upon which a former addict lives and loves. They "return" the investment in them far and wide.
It is not that we are leaving these addictive personalities by the wayside of civilization, for we are not. There are choices that are involved in all of these projects for us, for you and for those people who are addicted and how they got into that position. We would far more greatly see the need for preventative action toward those addictive personalities who have not, in fact, become addicted to alcohol or some other form of drugs.
The preventive action was not given to us as Prince Caligastia cast our world into total darkness, oppressed by slavery and oppression, poverty and disease, fear and faithlessness. Addiction was just a relief from the hell of life on this world. Now it is time to bring in healing energies which are greatly needed.
Those who are already addicted are a small percentage of your society and it is unfortunate for their situation. We love them; God loves them; there is nothing to forgive—it is simply a matter of their living choices and needing to learn to live new lives within their societies.
These are the words of a personality who has not experienced addiction. Addiction happens when one's will powers are defeated by animal impulses and cravings that get out of control. This is certainly not a "simple" matter. If it was simple, there would be no addiction. Certainly no need for rehab.
You may come to an erroneous opinion or conclusion that spirit does not care about these people, but surely we do.
There is no death, so we needn't be concerned about the decimation of the population by way of geophysical catastrophes and pandemic diseases. And we needn't concern ourselves with the sick and diseased population of our world who are suffering in hospitals and in pain. As well as for the addicts who are beyond their personal choice to quit. However, the lessons that come with experience are very powerful. The lessons that come with the grace of God are the very greatest.
We wish you to remember that the time is very short now and that our message must get out to the broadest population of the world.
What took you so long as to just now find that you have not the time to do things in the light of love for EACH and EVERY soul on this hellhole?
We also consider the return on our investment. When we invest in populations that are free from addiction and free from these inclinations, we know that those who will follow these socially sustainable procedures will also see the benefit and share them with others. This assists our work to broaden its audience to the largest number of people."
Those who are recovering and healed are far more revealing of the benefits of sobriety than those who know not of this calamity in one's life.
If this transcript is truly the words and teachings of Machiventa, I will have to ask Christ Michael if He is investing in the right stocks and bonds. The market is about to collapse!
Marty
Gerdean wrote: Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:39 PM
Question: Who is the "we"? Is he speaking for Michael and Mother? for the planetary regime? for the angels and seraphim, guardians of addicted mortals?
It sounds like he is speaking for the Tea Party.
Whose resources are limited? is it the resources of our Creator? Perhaps Machiventa has never experienced the tremendous power of the healing of such addicts who sank to the very bottom and were saved by their hope and faith, by the love of their families and peers. It is the very top wrung of the ladder out of the hell of this world upon which a former addict lives and loves. They "return" the investment in them far and wide.
They are precisely the kinds of people Jesus came to save. ... and we should follow in his footsteps.
The preventive action was not given to us as Prince Caligastia cast our world into total darkness, oppressed by slavery and oppression, poverty and disease, fear and faithlessness. Addiction was just a relief from the hell of life on this world. Now it is time to bring in healing energies which are greatly needed.
Addiction is an unfortunate side-effect of such ease-seeking solace, but Jesus heard their cries and lifted them up, as should we, not cast them aside because they don't adequately support the economy. Since when did Machiventa become a Republican?
These are the words of a personality who has not experienced addiction. Addiction happens when one's will powers are defeated by animal impulses and cravings that get out of control. This is certainly not a "simple" matter. If it was simple, there would be no addiction. Certainly no need for rehab.
It is NOT a small percentage. It is said that 94% of humanity is dysfunctional, having one "social disease" or another. That is the reason for the Correcting Time.
What took you so long as to just now find that you have not the time to do things in the light of love for EACH and EVERY soul on this hellhole?
That woman who wrote in, regarding their sincere efforts to create a sustainable life-style and assist in the process of Correcting Time (recovery) for and with people who could well be members of her own family -- or herself! -- or just local yokels who recognize the leadership qualities these people who could also provide a great service to the community if they set themselves to the task of saving souls while saving seeds ... she ought not to have been advised that her altruism was a waste of natural resources.
Those who are recovering and healed are far more revealing of the benefits of sobriety than those who know not of this calamity in one's life.
There is no greater miracle than to see the lights come on in the eyes of those who have been lost, but now are found, especially if and when you have played a part in it.
Thanks, Marty.
December 10
Steffani wrote: Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:12 PM
I'm pretty sure Machiventa is aware that chemical dependencies are illnesses caused by brain chemistry abnormalities...And "GOD' as we understand Him, went to a HELL of a great deal of effort to bring forth the 12 step programs, that have brought so many otherwise truly hopeless individuals into a saving personal relationship with Him. One individual's miraculous "white light" experience led to this development.
Machiventa is technically acting in a role equivalent to the 'Lord God' of the Old Testament replacing Caligastia by Christ Michael's request...and I wonder whether the reason certain of the celestial higher ups, not excepting 'Monjoronson' are simply significantly "dumbing down" their communications to the level of humans of meagerly average intelligence and educational levels is a perceived need to communicate in such manner...Or something else has transpired to cause this dearth of useful and omission of usable material past the ability of an ordinary high school teacher to deliver, much less a TeaM teacher...And this seeming to lack awareness of the limitless love of our Heavenly Father is inexplicable...and unbelievable.
Then again, we were warned of the disconnect that would occur whenever that which is always freely given by the Celestial Beings is given a market value by mortals involved in the process of sharing their spiritual gifts. And there was another caveat against those who would speak for 'the Gods' to their fellows rather than encourage them to listen in the stillness and establish their own one on one relationship with their divine indwelling Spirit Gift of our Paradise Father, and Jesus/Christ Michael and our Creative Mother Spirit.
This just doesn't sound like the 'Big Mac' we all came to know, love, and wholeheartedly trust with the future of Urantia the way Christ Michael does.
Marty wrote:Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:25 PM
Thank you for posting this view of the NEC#12, Steffani.
For some time now I have been questioning these transcripts. Oliver has referred to the previous one as a mind f*ck and has been complaining about them for some time now. I have been telling him to realize that these transmississions are coming through a mortal mind and not to let them disturb his faith.
It is becoming evident that something is not right in these lessons and we need to consider that they are not coming through as hoped for.
The Colorado group that is addressed by Daniel as T/R and the fantastic people who are moderating and transcribing in this very large venture of accessing the instructions and lessons of the Magisterial Mission are a very committed and dedicated team that I am proud to know as associates in our correcting time activities. However, the time has come after transcript after transcript becomes questioned as to its truth and its source.
I have decided to quit posting the NECs as Harp of God Bulletins. I am asking for a response from Daniel, Michael, and/or Roxanne about how they feel about this. Please realize that this is a vital concern that I have and would not express this lightly. I am hoping for heartfelt communication.
Thank you, Marty
Rob wrote:Dec 10, 2013 at 7:35 PM
Thank you for sharing thoughtful questions pertaining to language attributed to celestial beings. I have logged this correspondence in the lesson's discussion page and affixed what is becoming now a customary flag pointing persons to the discussion page for "questions raised re: this document".
December 11
Juan Juan wrote: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:50 PM
I'm pretty sure our Planetary Prince was referring to co-creative design teams when he spoke of limited resources that must be husbanded carefully, ye of little faith.
Rob wrote: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:50 PM
Thank you! Your comments have been added to the discussion page. Being "pretty sure" is characteristic of the human mind forever in a position of knowing less than it can believe.
December 12
Juan Juan wrote: Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:08 AM
I concur. The journey out of the dark back onto the track will never be forgotten, and might even multiply the services of the future? And for someone on Urantia wishing to be a focus of dynamic service, having an understanding of the "wild side" should bring much wisdom and compassion as to how to deal with anyone in that place.
December 16
Roxanne wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:59 PM
You discern rightly, Juan. Spiritual ministry to the individual is through the Teaching Mission; Social ministry is being done through the Magisterial Mission. Two completely different programs that each have specific purposes, goals and techniques. There are plenty of resources for individual ministry in the Teaching Mission with several celestials to minister to each mortal that desires their contact, but resources are much more limited in the Magisterial Mission, mainly because of the shortage of mortals willing to participate at this point in time.
The ministry to individuals who have addictive personalities can be done by the individuals who have experience with personal spiritual growth from their contact with the Teaching Mission and a desire to provide this service to their fellow man. There is also the ministry of AA that has an excellent track record of providing this service to individuals.
What Machiventa was referring to in his statement was related to how to change whole societies so that these types of addictions are prevented in the first place. This prevention ministry will be covered as co-creative design teams take up the subject and implement preventive techniques for whole societies. He made clear distinction between how the Father and all celestial beings feel toward these addicted individuals, whom they love and do not judge, versus the scope of the Magisterial Mission, which is concerned with changing societal mores for sustainability.
The individuals who criticize Machiventa and Monjoronson for not "sounding like they have in Teaching Mission transcripts, full of love and concern for the individual" are not understanding that the focus of the Magisterial Mission is not on the individual, but on the social activities of groups of individuals interacting in settings, such as cities, states, nations or whole civilizations. Just as you, as individuals, speak differently to your children or loved ones than you do to a car salesman or a judge in a courtroom, so do our celestial mentors speak differently to us on a personal level than they do when discussing reconstructing our social interactions. It doesn't mean that we are any less loved as individuals, but it is more like we are all business associates with a job to do.
I hope this is helpful in understanding the differences between the two missions.
Roxanne
Rob wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:11 PM
Thank you Roxanne! I have added your comments to the discussion page and trust that in addition to discerning the difference between personal and planetary service applications, persons will likewise become adept at observing the distinctions between divine beings and humans speaking for them.
Gerdean wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:49 PM
I hope Roxanne's elucidation of her perception of the difference between the Teaching Mission and the Magisterial Mission is understood to be Roxanne's perception, not everybody's.
The Teaching Mission is much more than a personal ministry or a method of dealing with addictive personalities, although it is certainly capable of handling that, too. We are all being rehabilitated -- if we choose to submit to it now -- or we can wait until later, in Mansonia, where there will be no delay. It is evident that many members of both the Teaching Mission and the Magisterial Mission have a long way to go before they can be depended on as effective kingdom builders.
As we grow, so does our influence in society.
Steffani wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:07 PM
That's where this concept is going awry...the ONLY way to change the world is STILL one heart and mind at a time...the "things of this world"...business...shortages... have zero relevance to our Father's kingdom that is STILL "not of this world". The social paradigm will change as soon as enough people are on board with Father's Program...doing His Will as He directs them individually and PERSONALLY within.
References: 178:1.4,5,8,13,17 , 195:9.4, 195:10.10
Rob wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:12 PM
Having seen the Teaching Mission and Magisterial Mission over the years represented by humans speaking on behalf of material applications of these spiritual initiatives in voices often assuming unchallengeable authority reminds me of the relationship between hope and illusion described as:
Illusions come about when hope is attached to a specific future outcome. Illusion can then dominate hope and cause a person to do whatever it takes to create that illusion in reality. In this way, the ends begin to justify the means, so much so that the greater the utopian nature of the illusion, the more its increasingly desperate and even immoral measures become justified by that illusion. - Ham
Gerdean wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:34 PM
... resulting in delusion.
Rob wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:40 PM
Yes, "all human beings have their delusions, it is safe to say that none are without them. When personality and mind interact, there is then a personal aspect of mind that is individual and within this realm are many different delusions which are personal colorations of perception. Character is the willingness to let go of delusion."
"Human beings are under a delusion in general that the morontia and spiritual realms are peopled with perfect beings. But this is untrue. Perfect beings are found in Havona and scattered throughout the universes one finds them. They are perfect, but they are also incomplete. They are limited in their experience. Only the Father can be said to be complete, absolute, as well as perfect." - Ham
Rob wrote: Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:28 PM
For those who appreciate the value of comparative studies in any endeavor, I submit the following that offers significant contrast to the business development model of CCDTeams.
There are many here that come with me and are present, and who are entering more deeply your consciousness, and as we do, our materialization becomes increasingly evident in your lives. There are those in the Teaching Mission that you know and have grown to know so well who are perhaps troubled by an apparent change of focus. Let me clarify that the focus is upon the transformation of each soul and yet simultaneously your soul is linked to this child that you all share, that I would, as your Magisterial Son, bring forth from within your womb. You together carry this precious being. Each of you is a parental contributor to this culture of planetary ascension.
There is no division among those who discern the same curriculum, the same purpose of manifesting our Father's love, but you in this world have lacked the skills and capacity to gather yourselves in this liberating solidarity to yield the glory of the shared life that is the soul, the life that is the offspring of mind and spirit in each and all. Each of us have our roles to play, but everyone who remains focused upon this manifestation, showing forth our Father’s light, contributes to this growing culture.
Be prepared to receive additional teachers, influences of which you have not dreamed. Michael in his lavish love has prepared for you a feast. Each of you brings something essential to this table of communion. No one will be refused who desires to live in the love and light we are. - Monjoronson
Monjoronson’s assignment, his particular task will be focusing upon those individuals who are likely to be able, in the course of receiving their correction, to have the greatest impact upon the infrastructure of your shared civilization. We, those of us who adjoin his efforts, my Melchizedek brothers, will be focusing upon what you call the grass roots, but all of us regardless of our particular assignments, will be focused upon individuals. This is the focus of the kingdom of God. This is really the simplicity of Michael’s good news of the Father’s love that rules in the hearts of individual men and women throughout this universe of universes. Together we will effect change throughout this world.
There are those who become distracted by hierarchy, organizational structure, and the sense of relative importance of a particular station or office in such a system of governance. Certainly the struggles of mortals adjusting to advancing revelations makes this very visible and obvious that there is a great need to remember and to remain focused upon the Source of all of these that dwells within each person. It is here that the word great is rightly applied. Relative to this, all things are indeed of but comparative significance. It is this eternal presence that must stabilize these ever-changing structures of governance that are in a constant state of evolution. - Monmacion
Does your mission mandate differ much from the mandate we are under with the Melchizedek schools?
No, we work in harmony. We work also in stages. The Melchizedeks have undertaken a great project and will continue to function within their project definitions. My mission, as is theirs, is for the whole world. Our methods of application will differ. My functions will be in certain circles of power upon your planet in your various agencies and institutions. The Melchizedeks have been working largely in a grassroots fashion, and I will be making efforts, to use your terminology, from a top down direction. Therefore we work in harmony, but are using different approaches. I hope I have addressed your question. - Monjoronson
